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Post by apache on Nov 28, 2014 12:20:40 GMT
I do like the ProEdge system over all other sharpening devices I have tried.... I am quite new to woodturning so that may not count for very much.
However, I am frustrated with not being able to find any guidance to appropriate settings for the Fingernail Profiler and Long Grind jig (PELGJ).
Clearly I can adjust head setting angle, Head Height and protrusion as well as the long grind jig positions.
Does anyone have any advice and guidance as to what settings are appropriate to which type of grind.... I know this may be how long is a piece of string type of question.. but I would like some help.
REgards
Apache
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Post by Robert on Dec 11, 2014 14:22:44 GMT
Hello Apache, very pleased you like the Robert Sorby ProEdge. Have you managed to look at our YouTube channel. Please follow this link and you'll see a film called Hints and Tips www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-nTHpfcwkQThis film ought to provide you with information you need. If not please get back to me. Best regards Robert |
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Post by apache on Dec 16, 2014 5:43:07 GMT
Hi Robert
Thanks for the reply, however, the very good video does not come close to answering my question regarding settings on the profile jig. i.e. the numbers on joint on the side and the collar on the stem.
Kind regards
Apache
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Post by Robert on Dec 17, 2014 10:22:38 GMT
Hi Apache, The fingernail profiling jig is sourced from another manufacturer and is subject to patent. The numbers and arrows all relate to its system. We set the collar and angle of the jig for you so that all you have to alter is the protrusion of the tool out of the jig. This makes life very simple for the person sharpening and removes any unnecessary complexity. To achieve swept-back long grind ‘wings’, use the long grind jig as seen in the film Hints and Tips www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-nTHpfcwkQ. This provides an effortless grinding action and delivers first class results. If you do alter the settings on the arm it will affect the angle the arm is used at and will therefore compromise the presets on the machine. We therefore advise against altering the settings on the jig's collar (it's not necessary). We provide a template if you need to reset the arm to factory settings. You can see this at the foot of page one of the instructions for the Universal Sharpening System www.robert-sorby.co.uk/pdf/sharpening_system_instruction.pdfPrint it out to get a full size template if resetting is necessary. I hope this answers your question. Kindest regards Robert |
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Post by Rob on Dec 17, 2014 11:45:40 GMT
Hi Robert
I think the poster is searching for something many of us have been after since having acquired our Pro-edge and that is a guide to how the 3 setting variables affect both the bevel angle and the wing swept back amount.
Since you refer to the patented elliptical grinding jig, allow me to mention the "elephant in the room" and suggest that the jig is probably manufactured by a well known Swedish water cooled grinding company. Though I might be wrong about that. If I'm right and the jig is in fact the one I'm referring to, then any Tormek owners will know that there is a very useful indeed guide in their manual about how one can control the grind as described above by varying the settings.
I think what the PE community need is exactly that kind of guide. No one is asking Sorby to break any patents, on the contrary, we're asking you to get your brightest engineer and best technical drawing guru to spend a day messing about in the factory with the 60g belt and experiment with all the different protrusion, collar etc settings so you can publish a simple guide that documents the bevel and wing outcomes for any given settings you dial in. It will necessarily be different from that Swedish company because their grindstone is a curved surface ie a wheel whereas the PE is a flat bed. Further, apart from the pre-drilled holes in the boss, one can't vary the distance from the axis of rotation to the grinding medium. So, if you write a guide that's specific to the PE, I cant see how you would be infringing their copyright?? Am I mis-understanding some subtlety of IPR law here?
Many people have raised this same plea over and over again ie a published guide just like Tormek have in their manual. Please can we have one....pretty please!
The PE is so brilliant a tool, this would be the icing on the cake. Respectfully, it isn't good enough to say, don't do it, just use the presets...these people are turners....they're going to play with grinds.....saying they can't is sending entirely the wrong message.
Edit: Its worth mentioning that I've been a Tormek user for many years and the Pro-Edge is absolutely streets ahead for turners in my view. (Why I bought it in fact) The sheer versatility of the Pro-edge coupled with its speed of grind AND speed and ease of setup compared to water cooled is what I really like about it. The one teensy weensy weakness is this lack of information about how you can expect a grind to turn out if you alter any one of the three variable adjustments (collar, tool protrusion from jig and distance of jig boss from the grinding medium). It is a point of frustration for pretty much all the PE users I know personally (in my turning club). If this gap could be plugged I think it would be really helpful. |
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Post by laymarcrafts on Jan 7, 2015 15:02:18 GMT
Rob has said it all, I am struggling to achieve my objective and it would be much easier if RS produced an information sheet on how you set everything up for each particular Grind.
We have a good Machine/System but I wonder how many users are actually getting the best out of it? I have had a few negative opinions about the PE and wonder if these users are acually struggling a bit like I am?
Richard
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mcb
New Member
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Post by mcb on Jan 7, 2015 18:37:04 GMT
... suggest that the jig is probably manufactured by a well known Swedish water cooled grinding company.
I was told by a Sorby representative at the Kent Show last year that they buy the assembly from Tormek and that the numbers on the apparatus refer to Tormek and Pro-Edge. A detailed Instruction Manual for the Pro-Edge would be wonderful. MC |
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Post by phoneman on Jan 7, 2015 18:47:42 GMT
I attended a seminar with Chris Pauncy of Tormek. Well worth the time! I recall him saying the Tormek patent was for the jig mounting in a round hole. Oneway has made similar jigs for years. I think the Tormek design is a significant improvement.
The jig settings are discussed briefly in the Tormek Woodturner's information kit. The kit consists of the book and a very well done DVD done by Jeff Farris. The info kit sells for US$ 35. Jeff's video alone is well worth the cost, and much would pertain to the ProEdge.
Some research with an older gouge would be time well spent. I believe each of the numbers on the jig increase or decrease the angle by five degrees. Hopefully Jeff will post.
Phoneman
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Post by phoneman on Jan 7, 2015 21:39:16 GMT
I have been studying the guidebook which came with my jig (Tormek). I'm not a turner, so this is based on study rather than "in the trenches" experience.
With the Tormek, and probably the Pro Edge, the hole which places the jig closer to the wheel or belt is used with spindle gouges. The further hole is for bowl gouges. The 55mm protrusion (the shortest length) is used for spindle gouges. The middle length, 65mm, is used with bowl gouges.
The primary variable seems to be the jig adjustment number. number one is almost a straight grind. As the numbers increase, the grind becomes more fingernail in nature.
The Ellsworth grind is achieved by using a number six (not engraved on the jig, just "swaged" and the longest protrusion, 75mm on the Tormek.
With the Tormek, the distance between the universal support bar and the grinding wheel can be varied. I'm not sure if this is possible with the Pro Edge. Even with this constraint, the jig should be more than adequately versatile. Incidentally, the protrusion length can be varied beyond the three fixed lengths, also. The two holes and three protrusion lengths are for simplicity, not orthodoxy.
I have often worked out problems with my Tormek with a quiet cup of coffee and some trial and error (usually without the motor running. I can just spin the grinding wheel. With a Pro Edge, this would seem like a good use for a black marker and a worn belt to check settings. I believe an hour's quiet experimentation would solve most of the frustration. (This is not to let Sorby off the hook for poor instructions.)
Tormek includes several marking strips with the jig. They also sell the levels separately. They look quite professional, although a blank mailing return address label will suffice for the thrifty. Mark the hole (A or B); the protrusion length; and the jig setting on the label and place it on the collar of the tool. A good tip for those of us, like me, whose memory was better in the past.
Ideally, I would have two identical gouges ground alike. i would change one variable, such as setting the jig setting from say 2 to 3 and compare the two gouges. making digital photos would be a great touch.
Please feel free to correct me if any of this is incorrect. I am neither a turner nor imfallible.
phoneman
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Post by Rob on Jan 7, 2015 23:23:35 GMT
Jolly well put Ken....er I mean Phoneman :-)
Actually Jeff did do an explanatory post early on when this forum first began last spring/summer which helps to shed some light on the variables. You have done the same. But I think whats needed is to build on that with essentially a chart type data table that shows the usual range of basic repeatable grinds with factory at one end and Ellsworth at the other. Whats there today is either of those two extremes but virtually nothing in the middle. Ironically that's where most of us actually do our grinding.
You're all awfully quiet on this issue chaps (Robert Sorby I mean)....are we stepping into commercially embarrassing territory here or something? If so, I'm not seeing it myself???
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Post by phoneman on Jan 8, 2015 0:37:14 GMT
One carefully staged and well lit photo showing identical gouges with the (grinds) different jig numbers in sequence would answer a lot of questions. It would be more user friendly than the diagrams in the Tormek literature. I would print it out and keep it next to the Pro Edge.
By carefully staged, I mean placing the cutting edges all in the same plane of focus. They would all be in focus. If done well, the changes in the grind due to changing the jig numbers will be blatantly obvious. I would leave it on the forum and readily accessable. This is an issue which requires only some education, not accumulated skill. This is not rocket science, but does need to be plainly explained. Worse case scenario, Sorby will sell more jigs and Tormek will sell more to Sorby.
Early in my telephone career I attended a sales course. (I was a hot shot back then selling extensions, princess phones, etc.) One of the things I remember from this outstanding class was that "good sales is good education". If the potential customer understands the product and what it will do for him, he will purchase it. A potential Pro Edge customer should be able to watch and read the Sorby info about sharpening gouges and be able to set the jig easily. If he can, he might contribute to Sorby's bottom line....
phoneman
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Post by Rob on Jan 8, 2015 9:43:47 GMT
Spot on...well said Ken. And lets be honest, young Mr Farris wrote the book (and the youtube script) on educating prospective and existing customers on the value of using his products to best effect. What we need here is a little sprinkling of his magic dust on the Proedge.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not ungrateful for the very professional footage that already exists on the web from Sorby. Well done and goes most of the way explaining how the machine works to best effect. It's just that little, rather finicky detail around the variability of the grind possibilities. Bit of a pain to do I imagine, but we customers would be very grateful and would evangelise the tool even more :-)
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Post by phoneman on Jan 8, 2015 11:43:00 GMT
Nothing wrong with promoting a good product.
Last night I read one of Jeff's posted where he stated that the original purpose of the vari jig was to duplicate the existing shapes of the Sorby turning tools. That seems quite logical and should satisfy the needs of the majority of users with a minimal learning curve.
I think this conversation also has a focus for those of us who want to be able to tweak things for better performance. It is the difference between a machine operator who can competently perform an operation and a machinist who can be more innovative. I think it is important to be fluent in performing the basic tasks of sharpening. I also think it is desirable, for those who are interested, to have a deeper understanding of how things work and to be able to make modifications when desired.
Ken
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Post by Jeff Farris on Jan 13, 2015 17:36:29 GMT
Please see my comments in the "Pro Set" thread.
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Post by Louis on Jan 5, 2016 16:13:50 GMT
I got the answer by e-mail from Robert Sorby.
The angle should be 120 degrees and the collar 58mm from the bottom.
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