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Post by laymarcrafts on Jan 10, 2015 18:04:49 GMT
Just found this on Craft Supplies USA web site, now that answers some of the unanswered questions, wonder it there instruction manual is more informative? Why is the UK Pro Set not like this? Richard  |
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Post by phoneman on Jan 13, 2015 13:58:26 GMT
Part of the confusion may be "apples and oranges". or, more accurately, bevel angles and millimeters. The Tormek TTS-100 projection slots are calibrated inmillimeters. The PE jig pictured is in degrees. Either will work, but having two different units is confusing.
phoneman
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Post by Rob on Jan 13, 2015 14:40:25 GMT
I have to say it still doesn't get anywhere near whats being asked for repeatedly which is a chart which documents all the variables in play when using the elliptical grinding jig. What the pro-set does is allow the user to set the protrusion setting of the gouge beyond the shoulder of the collar. That is helpful, don't get me wrong. At least you can instantly see 4 different bevel grind angles that are simple to dial in. But there is no information about the other variables, the knuckle setting and the distance from the axis of rotation. The latter is tricky because there isn't actually any tapering variability, there's just the long boss with is different holes. So you have 3 choices on that variable. But there's nothing about the knuckle settings and how varying that relates to either of the other two variable adjustments.
The fact I've raised this at least 4 times already to no response leads me to assume Sorby are uninterested in doing anything about it, including it would seem even acknowledging it exists. A simple, we understand the point but there are no plans to deliver any manual updates at this time would at least have shown some common courtesy! I'll refrain from asking any more...I get the message!
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Post by Jeff Farris on Jan 13, 2015 17:03:36 GMT
Rob,
That most certainly is not the message. Your postings along with e-mails on the subject have sparked an internal discussion about how we use and teach the use of the ProEdge fingernail jig.
Just because we haven't jumped in here with a definitive answer doesn't mean we aren't working on it.
We've tried to make it as simple as possible to create the profiles we feel give the turner the most useful shapes. At a show, when someone asks me how to make a side grind longer, the first question I ask them is why they want it longer. 9 times out of 10, they either don't know or say that someone else told them it would be good. That is not to say that there aren't legitimate reasons for longer wings or different bevel angles, but tweaking for tweaking's sake just wastes tool steel. John Jordan taught me that the wing length should be roughly equivalent to the gouge's diameter. David Ellsworth obviously has a vastly different opinion, since he grinds his wings back an inch or so on a half inch gouge. Both gentlemen are masters at shear scraping with a bowl gouge to yield a nearly flawless surface finish. Why does Ellsworth need so much more ground edge? I don't know. But until someone shows me a viable reason, I am going to stick with Jordan's ratio, which is pretty much what you get with the ProEdge settings right out of the box, without adjusting anything.
For those of you who do know why you want to tweak your profile here are some guidelines.
Fundamentally, increasing the knuckle angle makes the wing longer and bevel shorter. Increasing the protrusion has a similar effect, but affects the bevel angle more than it affects the wing length. Adjusting the position of the stop combined with using the various holes in the long grind jig also affects the bevel angle and wing length and lets you move a given angle up and down the platen so you aren't flirting with the upper edge where the belt is unsupported.
As for a curved line along the ground edge, that is a matter of where you spend your time grinding. It takes a bit of finesse to create that curve, but in general, if you spend a little more time grinding the dead center of the gouge, you can then blend that into a curve working around the wing.
Hope this helps without making the waters even muddier. Don't forget, there's a template to return the jig to factory settings if you start adjusting and then want to find your way home.
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Post by Rob on Jan 13, 2015 19:06:34 GMT
Finally!! Thanks Jeff. All you needed to say was "shut yer face Rob....we're thinking it through" and I would have toddled off.
I do take the point about challenging the "salivating for an Ellsworth" newbie turner about why he/she wants any particular grind but....After I got my PE I was experimenting like bilio because it felt so good to not be restricted by the slowness of the Tormek. I got pretty much where I wanted and then I hosted a turning event for my club. We set up lathes for 7 and did two separate days. Guess who got landed with sharpening advice duty! One of the guys was your usual dry grinder jockey and he wanted to recreate his detail spindle grind at 30 degrees. Basically, I couldn't, not without almost doing the sharpie on the bevel trick and farting around with all the jig knobs to try and match his bevel. It was difficult and that was what originally spawned the request for more information.
I entirely accept that the dial in settings you have baked in to the jigs are very useful for most situations but you of all people Jeff must come across turners (at shows) who want a particular grind for whatever reason. I just don't think I personally have the neck to tell them that the Sorby factory settings are all they will ever need. Even if it's true, it conveys a feeling of arrogance I guess.
But anyway, I've over laboured this point. Sorry if I came across throwing my toys out the pram....and thanks for the response. I'm sure anything you produce that will help inform turners about the full range of grinds capable from the PE will be well received.
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Post by Jeff Farris on Jan 13, 2015 21:37:45 GMT
First thing I will say in response is that a 30 degree detail gouge is a very tricky animal to control at the lathe. That said, it is one of my favorite tools. But turning that grind loose with a beginning (or even intermediate) turner makes me queasy. It is a serious catch just waiting to happen.
Yes, there are many turners that have a good grasp on what they're doing and should have a way to get the ProEdge dialed in to do what they want.
Going back to the guidelines I laid out a post or two up, let me add some more meat.
If you have the tool roughly where you want it (as you did in the example you brought up), know that a long bevel (like 30 degrees) wants a long protrusion...say in the neighborhood of three inches or a little better (I use 3-1/8"). When you stretch the protrusion out that far, your wing can be excessively long at the factory setting. Bringing it a touch closer toward square will bring it back to something useful.
What I have done in the past is to loosen the knuckle just enough that it will move, but stay where you leave it. Unlock the stop on the pivot shaft, and similarly put it at a "light drag". Then put the whole rig on the machine and see how the ground tool fits against the platen, then tweak the knuckle angle and the stop setting until I get the bevel to ride on the abrasive all the way round. I think I am describing exactly what you did. I wish there were a more elegant way to look at a tool and know where to set the jig, but there isn't. Even Tormek's chart is a rough starting point. Looking at a finished tool, then comparing it to the chart and using the settings from the chart will rarely (if ever) give you the same profile you started with....close maybe, but not exact. There's always tweaking to be done.
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Post by Rob on Jan 13, 2015 23:24:44 GMT
Sorry, my bad, poorly explained. The chap who wanted the 30 degree detail gouge is a master turner (in the vernacular of our club). What he was new to was the Pro-Edge. So he has no qualms using the tool with that grind, but I was struggling to get it to do what I wanted. Mind you having said that, they must have been reasonably impressed with my demonstration cos a load of them bought one after the event :-)
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Post by Jeff Farris on Jan 14, 2015 12:11:45 GMT
I understood you, Rob. I just put in my feelings about a 30 degree detail gouge to let people know that it is an advanced turner's tool.
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Post by Rob on Jan 14, 2015 15:33:32 GMT
No worries Jeff
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Post by phoneman on Jan 15, 2015 10:27:19 GMT
Jeff,
While on the Lee Valley site, I noticed click choices for Canadian English, US English, and Canadian French. Great idea. I have seen the same kind of thing with you tubes...flash and something else. Maybe you could put choices like "English" and "British Engligh". Just kidding, Rob. However, I could not find prams In the Lee Valley catalog.
On a more serious note, this well done discussion illustrates the difference in user groups, PE or anything else. The largest group wants to reproduce standard result quickly. There is nothing wrong with this. By using simple "foolproof" settings, the average Joe is able to sharpen his own gouges quickly to the time tested Sorby factory settings. He can keep his skews very sharp with the standard fifteen degrees of skew angle. He can sharpen his chisels with twenty five degree bevels. He can learn this very quickly and with no fuss no muss he is producing sharp and consistent edges. Fortunately for toolmakers, there are enough average Joes to warrent the investment to manufacture PEs and other tools. This is a good thing. Irish turner Glenn Lucas put this very well when he stated that for the first time his students were able to sharpen well in class instead of hoping to do so someday.
Then there are subsets of the group who wants more. They see the beautiful turnings of someone like David Ellsworth and think if they have tools like his they can make these beautiful objects too.Once again, there is nothing wrong with this desire as long as one remembers that forty years of hard wirk might be another factor in this success.
Another subset of this group also strives for the same perfection, but is willing to put in the hours of work and study. This is the group which wants to know how increasing or decreasing the protrusion of the gouge will effect the edge. Jeff has done this. His posts reflect this understanding.
I have experienced this kind of understanding. After months of extreme frustration trying to accurately use an expensive professional mat cutter, things finally clicked. I had a much deeper understand of mat cutting. Sadly, I don't think most people ever achieve that level of understanding oof anything. Once achieved, it is most satisfying and one wants to expand that understanding to other areas.
What is missing with the Pro Edge is the sixty page manual with the long acquired factory staff expertise which will help the serious user get into warp drive in more deeply understanding his tools.. The process should not require twenty years. A week of concentrated study with Jeff should propel the student with a solid understanding. Realizing that such personal training is not feasible for most people, an excellent sixty page manual and some in depth videos would be a great help. As an example of this, there is an excellent DVD on sharpening and using turning tools produced by Tormek. The presenter is outstanding. The DVD also shows how a very well done learning tool can convey a lot of information efficiently and cost efficiently. Most copies of manuals are skimmed or not even opened. This will not change. However, there is a group, hopefully growing in numbers, who desire a eeper understanding.
Ken
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