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Post by lataxe on Jun 27, 2020 15:16:51 GMT
Greetings to all from a new member of this forum, here mainly to discover stuff about the Sorby Proedge tool grinder.
I realise that most here will be of the woodturning fraternity and that the discussions about the Proedge will be mostly centered on the associated tools. I'm more interested in the grinding (and possibly sharpening) of plane blades, chisels, scrapers and a (very) few gouges.
I bought the Proedge with some ceramic and trizact belts, as well as the jig for squaring up chisels and blades to the belt then moving them side to side. The performance of both the belts and the machine is as I'd hoped but the jig seems rather basic and not as effective as it could be. For example, it does have a very slight wobble of the tracking bar in the machine's angled table slot; and the squaring bar isn't sufficient by itself to stop a large plane blade from lifting or moving a bit as one tries to apply blade to belt whilst moving the jig side to side.
Has anyone made or designed an improved jig for plane and chisels? I can imagine a wooden affair made of a fine-grained and resilient hardwood such as rock maple or even some naturally slippy timber such as lignum vitae - something that confines both sides of a blade, via adjustable bars like that on the Sorby jig; but two-of; and with a better yet more slippery fit in the angled platform groove. I can also imagine a skew blade jig that could be altered i' the angle for blades with different skew angles. (I have various chisel and plane blades with skews between 45 degrees and 15 degrees).
Another question concerns just how far one can go with the Proedge towards the fine edges that are often needed in cabinet making tools, which seem generally to need a much finer finish than turning tools to be workably sharp? I can get what looks to the naked eye like a polish on the bevels with the trizact belts but the edge can be further improved with a bit of scary sharpening on 3M papers mounted on glass then a hone on leather - going by the quality and ease of cuts with the various edges. Is there something about the trizact edge that leaves it more vulnerable or raggedy than one made with microgrit papers or fine diamond "stones"?
Just some thoughts, really. At present I'm happily reshaping about 14 plane and chisel blades that have steep microbevels grown too large and needing the main bevel re-establishing so the micro-bevels can be re-done at 0.1mm wide instead of 3mm, which reduces the re-honing time a great deal. :-)
Lataxe
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Post by lataxe on Jun 28, 2020 8:34:46 GMT
Further play with the Proedge.
A careful peening of the runner of the support platform for chisel and plane blades has resulted in the elimination of the bit of wobble between the support platform and the angle plate. It won't last, though, as the support platform is aluminium so the proud peens will wear off in no time. It would be better if the support platform under-runner was steel as it could be peened for an exact fit but wouldn't wear back again to a wobble-state so quickly.
I also found that rubbing the worst of the grinding marks off the angle plate surface with a large diamond stone improved the side-to-side travel of the support platform (and presumably it will do the same for other jigs going on the angle plate). This also revealed the very slight bumps in the angle plate surface, which is now still showing manufacturer's grinding marks but is significantly flatter-smoother.
But I digress.
Another question: does anyone use a graphite cloth stuck on the plate over which the belt travels in the area where the grinding is done? Those graphite cloths sold for belt sanders do make a great difference to the heat build up as well as to the rate of wear of the sander's "sole". I'm slightly surprised the Proedge doesn't come with one .... but do they create a problem of some sort on the Proedge?
Lataxe
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Post by Pete on Jun 28, 2020 9:21:05 GMT
Hi Lataxe
I am unqualified to answer your questions as I am 98% woodturner, however my neighbour is a cabinet maker who sharpens all his tools on various water / oil / diamond type stones (I am not exactly sure what he uses but I know it is by hand) he will borrow my ProEdge occasionally to, like you, work the main bevel and refresh the micro-bevel, or if a chisel chips and needs a heavy re-profiling, plus I have some flatwork tools that I use the ProEdge on but couldn't really say if they are up to scratch as I just don't use them enough.
Coincidentally another flat-worker has also just joined the forum, Ben may be interested in what you are discovering and add to the discussion. I will also call in the cavalry by bouncing this up to Clive who works for Robert-Sorby for his input particularly on the graphite cloth, but he will also have more information on the tools you are sharpening.
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Post by lataxe on Jun 28, 2020 10:57:35 GMT
Hello Pete.
Thanks for that answer and the bump-up to Sorby. Perhaps I can persuade them to make a nice new skew jig for those skewed plane blades and chisels? I will only ask for 99% of the profits as royalty. :-)
The machine is a pleasing thing, I have to say. I notice in some of your past posts that you didn't get on with it at first but eventually became so enthusiastic about it that you bought a-one o' them diamond belts! When they have the sale with 75% off I might get one myself. (85% off would be better).
Meanwhile the ladywife has insisted I buy the knife sharpening jig. She says it for her many kitchen knives (she is a very fine cook indeed) and not for the secret husband dispatcher I know she keeps for when she is a bit more narked than usual and in need of some rich compost for her herb garden. These tools and their many add-ons! Fatal to the wallet. It's her birthday in two weeks time so I will tell her she has a knife sharpening jig as her lovely pressie, then hide until she puts the husband dispatcher back in to its hidey hole.
Still, the Proedge spares are cheap, eh? I hope never to need one but have bought the bearings as a ju-ju to keep away the gremlin, who won't bother knackering my Proedge if it knows I can just put new bearings in.
Lataxe
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Post by lataxe on Jun 28, 2020 12:35:39 GMT
Another half hour of play before lunch reveals some more wee glitches & fixes.
Standard length chisels will sometimes sit without issue on the raised platform "square guide" jig (the one with the adjustable side bar) "for sharpening all your chisel and plane blades". (Sorby blurb for this jig) at the standard-bevel of 25 degrees. But some chisels - for example, my ancient Marples blue handle bench chisels of standard length and my Crown cranked chisels - have a problem.
Those standard length bench chisels that are only slightly shorter (perhaps 10mm) in their blade lengths than the average have a tendency to bump the beginnings of their handle bolster on the Sorby jig platform before the tip of their blade reaches the sharpening belt ... at 25 degrees at least. ALl my cranked chisels have the bent part of their arm do this too. This both raised the chisel from the 25 degree setting of the platform and also allows the chisel to roll a bit as it's flat part (from bevel to bolster) is pushed up off the jig platform by the bolster hitting, then riding up on, the jig platform edge.
The solution is to use the side of the Sorby "square guide" platform jig to keep it square (sort of) to the belt, with the chisel resting on the main angle platform rather than on the "square guide" jig platform. The chisel edge reaches the belt sooner and the bolster doesn't foul the platform edge, then, at 25 degrees. But the edge of the "square guide" jig platform may not be as square as the adjustable side bar on the "square guide" platform. The whole point of the "square guide" jig is to enable chisels and plane blades to be presented dead-square to the belt, via adjustment of it's moveable sidebar with the aid of a machinist's square.
It looks like the design of the angle plate tilting mechanism creates a larger and larger gap from platform to belt as the angle decreases from 90 degrees. This causes many standard length chisels to foul their handle bolsters before the blade tip can reach the belt, when using the "square guide" jig supposedly "for sharpening all your chisel and plane blades". I believe the Sorby blurb should mention this issue and perhaps describe the "square guide" jig as for plane blades and longer-bladed chisels only.
********
I notice they do have another similar but simplified jig "for chisels" without the square guide bar, which is used with the chisel on the angle platform with the jig providing an approximate right angle presentation of the chisel blade to the belt and the ability to slide it sideways, via the jig edge rather than a platform and adjustable guide bar. This may be adequate for narrower chisels but only a slight departure of the jig edge from a true right angle to the belt will give wider chisels a small skew.......
Lataxe
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Post by Clive Brooks on Jun 29, 2020 13:02:08 GMT
Hi Lataxe
It sounds like you have been busy with your ProEdge... I am glad to read you like it even with a few quirks and foibles and we always appreciate our customers feedback. As a tool manufacturer we introduced the ProEdge to allow the tool user to be able to replicate what our engineers do in the factory to produce our tools. As we have such a huge range of tools...woodturning, woodworking, timber framing and carving, all with our standard cannel angles, shapes and cutting profiles, we made the ProEdge as efficient as possible, to cover as many tools as possible but as we all know there are also hundreds of possibilities of customer defined angles and profiles
I have been told by several specialist woodworkers like yourself they have produced specific jigs (such as the ones you have suggested) from appropriate materials, to accommodate their tools that are outside of the standard size, shape or profile
We have discussed adding a few new jigs to the range and with our new management and Directorship structure, I'm hoping that these will start to be released in the near future
I will speak with our engineers about the graphite cloth as it is not something they suggested when we were designing the ProEdge as there shouldn't be any excessive heat build up when using the appropriate abrasive belt for the particular operation required, with the minimal amount of forward pressure
The Trizact belts are excellent for producing a fine, extra fine and ultra fine finish on the cannel face as well as razor sharp cutting edge...the PE3000T is the finest Trizact belt we offer for the ProEdge and will sharpen high quality carbon steel down to about 2 microns, which is similar to some disposable razors. After that, you can either use the buffing mop and honing compound as a powered strop, which will give an even finer cutting edge and put a mirror finish on the surface or use the extra fine abrasive on glass or leather strop as you have suggested.
I hope this has been helpful
Regards
Clive
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Post by lataxe on Jun 29, 2020 16:18:23 GMT
Clive, Thanks for that swift reply. New jigs and old. The "square guide" jig looks like a recent addition to the Proedge accessories as it isn't mentioned in the user manual for the machine. Perhaps it could be regarded as version 1, from which the lessons are learnt so that Version 2 might be better? :-) My suggestions for the "square guide" jig would be that: i) the jig platform and moveable side guide bar be made of steel; and be substantially thinner than the current aluminium version. This would lower the platform so that plane and bench chisel blade edges being ground at the typical 25 degree bevel (or any other typical bevel angle for cabinet-making tools really) would reach the grinding belt backplate area sooner, i.e. before chisel handle bolsters or cranks hit the user-side edge of the jig's platform. ii) the under-platform guide bar that runs in the angle plate slot be moved back more from the front edge of the "square guide" support plate so that there's less of a gap between the front edge of the jig and the sanding belt where the edge meets it. This would mean the "square guide" jig couldn't be used at 90 degrees to the belt as it would stick out beyond the front edge of the angle plate and foul the belt at 90 degrees or near that. But it's a rare thing to put a 90 degree bevel on a plane or chisel blade. (Mind, Lie-Nielsen sell a plane scraper blade with a square "bevel"). Moving the "square guide" jig platform forward on its underside guide bar would also mean that chisel handle bolsters and cranks would be even less likely to come up against the jig platform's back edge before the sharp end reached the sandpaper belt. iii) the fit of the under platform guide bar for the "square guide" jig should be a better (i.e. closer and wobble-free) fit in the angle plate slot. A steel rather than an aluminium bar would allow the user to peen it to a perfect fit without the small peen-bumps wearing down so quickly, as they do with aluminium. An alternative might be a tight fitting bar of that slippery hard plastic stuff, which has the additional attribute of quickly wearing to a perfect fit if initially a little too tight but not then wearing more to go sloppy. My suggestion for a "skew blade" jig would be: i) an amendment to your existing skew guide that allowed a larger central triangular raised part to pivot on a larger thin steel platform having a bar under it like the "square guide" jig bar, to run in the slot of the angle platform. ii) the platform of this jig to have lines on either side of the triangular bit in the centre showing skew angles between 10 and 45 degrees every 5 degrees. The Veritas skew guide plate for their MkII honing guide is an illustration of what such a platform could look something like. www.leevalley.com/en-gb/shop/tools/sharpening/jigs-mounts-and-rests/101440-skew-registration-jig-for-veritas-mk-ii-honing-guide-systemAll just suggestions. Perhaps your designers have already made some jigs for we cabinetmakers that're even better than that? ***** It's true that the Proedge doesn't easily heat up the blades its grinding - although the 240 Al-O belt does heat a blade enough to pass a small message to the user's finger tips holding the blade down. But a graphite slip cloth under a moving sanding belt is pretty standard in many belt sanders and linishers as it also saves the wear plate from .... wearing. Would it hurt to put a graphite-coated cloth of that kind in the Proedge? Mind, the Proedge wear plate is much beefier than most wear plates in belt sanders I'm familiar with. And the spares are inexpensive. ****** Soon the knife sharpening kit will arrive in the posty box. No doubt further experiences with this will demand a post here. :-) The Trizact belts are at the ready. Lataxe |
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Post by lataxe on Jul 3, 2020 13:11:56 GMT
A post to show some photos of the Sorby "square guide" and its tendency to foul chisel handle bolsters. Another post will follow with some photos of a home-made alternative that improves things. Most of my bench chisels - the sort used for cabinetmaking - have blades between 10 and 11 cm long before the beginnings of a handle bolster, crank or other part not co-planar with the front or back of the chisel blade. As far as I can see, only paring chisels are longer. (And woodturning chisels - which is probably what the Proedge was initially designed for). Many of my standard-length bench chisels see the bolster or crank foul the "square guide" lower platform edge before the blade tip reaches the sharpening belt - at the standard main-bevel 25 degrees at least. (Steeper angles are not so problematic; shallower angles are more problematic). Any fouling of the handle end of a chisel before the blade tip reaches the belt alters the angle the chisel is being presented to the belt; it also makes the chisel unstable as the flat part of the blade rises off the "square guide" platform. Most of my standard length chisels suffer from this fouling of "square guide" platform edge with bolster or crank. Those that don't will soon do so as the chisel blades shorten over time with grinding and sharpening. Here are photos showing a Marples blue handle straight chisel and a Crown cranked chisel on the "square edge" platform at 25 degrees. The Marples just manages to reach the sanding belt without fouling the handle bolster but it has only about 5-6mm of blade shortening to go before that bolster hits the "square guide" platform edge. It already does if the angle jig is changed to 20 degrees. At 25 degrees, the Crown cranked chisel sees the bend of the cranked handle part hit the "square guide" platform edge before the blade tip reaches the sanding belt. It is 3mm short of getting to the belt. The "square guide" jig is sold for use with plane blades and chisels. In my view it's only suitable for plane blades and long chisels; or chisels for which a 30 degree or greater main bevel if wanted. Only mortise chisels tend to come with a 30 degree main bevel. But it could be improved. See next post. Lataxe |
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Post by lataxe on Jul 3, 2020 13:28:25 GMT
It would be better for bench chisels if the whole angle guide platform was less deep, with the user-facing side of the platform shorter - just long enough to accomodate the guide slot. But doing the same to the size of the "square guide" jig works to a degree in preventing chisel bolsters and cranks hitting the guide platform edge before the blade tip can reach the belt. Here is my first-pass design for a less deep "square guide" jig, made from scrap and a couple of knurled M4 bolts left over from a making an all-purpose shooting board. (See photos). The platform is the same thickness as the Sorby "square guide" jig platform but ends just after the guide bar. This leaves greater clearance for chisel bolsters and cranks. The platform is a bit of scrap fiddleback sycamore left over from box-making, as is the sapele guide bar. The side guide is a bit of black walnut scrap, with oversize screw holes to allow it to be squared to the belt, as with the Sorby guide. The knurled bolts are self-tapped into the sycamore (M4 into 3mm drilled holes lubricated with paste wax). There's now plenty of clearance of the bolsters of straight chisels. The cranked chisel also now reaches the sanding belt without fouling the crank although it's still close to the edge of the angle platform jig. If that platform too were shortened, the fouling problem would go away for everything but butt and very much shortened standard chisels. *** I intend to enhance this new "square guide" jig with an additional sliding guide bar on the right side, which will be used to guide chisels and plane blades on both edges, if they're parallel. The knurled knobs also provide a much better grip to move the platform side-to-side whilst one's fingers and thumbs press the blade to the platform and slide it forward to meet the belt. |
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Post by lataxe on Jul 3, 2020 19:40:41 GMT
Further fiddlin' & partin' about. The wee home made "square guide" jig in the previous post now has an extra part to ensure the squaring function of the "square guide". Pics below. The extra part is a side guide for the right hand side but is adjustable so that it can, with the left hand guide rail, keep the chisel or blade square to the sanding belt as the user moves the whole caboodle left and right whilst also pressing the blade or chisel edge up to meet the belt and keeping the thing flat on the guide platform to maintain the bevel angle. The right hand guide means you only have to concentrate on three operations rather than adding a fourth of keeping the chisel pressed against the side of a single guide. What it needs now is a spring clip on the moveable guide to press down on the blade when it's within the two guides, to stop it lifting if the user isn't doing so. The user then has only two things to do - move the whole thing side to side and press the blade up to rub on the belt. Perhaps I'll add a small motor to do the side to siding? (No I won't). :-) |
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Post by lataxe on Jul 3, 2020 19:44:23 GMT
Just three pics showing two different width blades (a 26mm chisel and a 60mm wide plane blade) in the guide. The four nice knurled knobs (forgive my alliteration) provide finger purchases to make moving the guide side-to-side a lot easier, especially as the blade is held upright and square to the belt by the two guides rather than by the operator. |
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Post by Pete on Jul 4, 2020 1:45:57 GMT
Excellent work Lataxe, thank you
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Post by Ciaran on Dec 26, 2020 11:59:41 GMT
Thank you, very interesting. I have just got one of these machines so lots of good info here!
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